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Trevor5555

Marlies lack of skilled Centers and RHD

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I was looking at the potential Marlies for next season and noticed a major imbalance that needs addressing. We have a big surplus of skilled wingers but we lack skilled Centers and RHD. Right now Leipsic, Kapanen, Griffith, Rychel, Johnsson are all very good wingers. Timashov, Moore and Lindberg are decent depth guys and still quite young. At center we have Gauthier, Cameranesi, Findlay and Kalinin under team control as our top centers next year.

The issue is continues when you look at the players coming to Marlies camp next year. Brooks and Bobylov of the WHL and Toninato of NCAA are our only centers AHL bound with Grundstrom, Bracco, Piccinich, Korostelov, Walker, Dzierkals, Korshkov and Engvall all being wingers.

Can we transition some guys to center or do we try to trade for a few skilled centers or sign UFA to add depth? We could find a few centers from the CHL / NCAA / Europe to lessen the imbalance.

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The imbalance is there on the blueline as well. Dermott - Nielsen - Valiev - Campbell - Brouillard are all LHD. Holl is our only RHD thats not here on loan right now.

Obviously we could sign a few RHD to balance things out or trade one / two of our many surplus wingers if we find an interested trade partner. Cant wait to see how we tweak our teams this summer.

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8 hours ago, HBCYG said:

That's what ahl vets are for.

I think there is room for 2-3 experianced guys to be leaders in the room / on the bench like Campbell, Clune or Greening but you need to reserve most of the AHL roster spots for developing players. I like us signing guys like Aaltonen who is 23 and still has room to develop into an NHL player. But guys like Clune, Greening and maybe even Campbell should be let go when it becomes clear they will never become(return to being) NHL players.

We have 16-18 forwards between 20-24 next season who will be fighting for AHL jobs and development time so theres no room for Career AHLer vets....if thats what you mean by vets. If you mean Leipsic / Griffith type AHL vets who are experianced but still developing then I can see what you mean. The days of the AHL being full of NHL cast offs or guys who just couldnt make it are gone. Its truely a development league / stepping stone for NHL hopefuls.

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 There's no limit or minimum to that number. If it's a light year they shouldn't feel obliged to ice a team full of guys who aren't going to become anything and 

We have the deepest pool we've had for eons and we still have Griffith, Kallnin, Sislo, Campbell, Smith, Laich, Clune, Olesky...O'Reilly, Cliche. You need pros in the AHL

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Looking at the numbers guys like Brooks, Bracco, Walker and Piccinich etc put up in junior I dont think we need guys like Sislo / OReilly / Campbell even. The guys there now will be expected to step up with the junior guys filling in the depth roles. The guys from junior are all 20-21 and haved played pretty well for 4 / 5 seasons of junior. Keeping / signing 27-30 year olds with no NHL future seems pointless and only holds back the guys we want to evaluate.

Adding Clune / Sislo / OReilly means your treating the AHL like a tier 2 pro league and not a true development league. It can be one or the other not both. You end up sacraficing either wins with rookie mistakes or development slots with aging 2nd rate pros.

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For me you go full on development to the point that you ice 10-12 prospects in the ECHL in case they outperform the guys you pick for the Marlies at camp.

AHL

Leipsic     -    Aaltonen   -   Kapanen

Grundstrom -  Brooks    -   Griffith

Johnnsson   -  Bobylov   -   Rychel

Timashov     -   Gauthier  -   Bracco

ECHL -

Walker          -   Cameranesi -  Moore

Dzierkals      -    Kalinin       -  Piccinich

Korostelov     -    Findlay      -   Lindberg

That is a full depth chart without adding any vets. Why push more prospects out before properly evaluating them? Give them a year to show themselves anyway. Plus our AHL team wouldnt get better by adding these AHL vets your talking about IMO.

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You also said they'd be icing a full depth ECHL team...it just doesn't work that way.

Those "second rate" pros are the guys who have stuck around because they have work ethic and know how to be a pro. They may be as good as they're going to get, but they are there to mentor the newbies who need to start doing more than just getting by one skill when they're back to being smaller fish. Especially when you're not a Kapanen or Leipsic who haven't really cut your way into a niche yet.

They also won't be bringing back a chunk of their lower tier prospects (the guys who will graduate, bolt for Europe, etc). 

You need a handful of them on your AHL team.

 

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23 minutes ago, Trevor5555 said:

For me you go full on development to the point that you ice 10-12 prospects in the ECHL in case they outperform the guys you pick for the Marlies at camp.

AHL

Leipsic     -    Aaltonen   -   Kapanen

Grundstrom -  Brooks    -   Griffith

Johnnsson   -  Bobylov   -   Rychel

Timashov     -   Gauthier  -   Bracco

ECHL -

Walker          -   Cameranesi -  Moore

Dzierkals      -    Kalinin       -  Piccinich

Korostelov     -    Findlay      -   Lindberg

That is a full depth chart without adding any vets. Why push more prospects out before properly evaluating them? Give them a year to show themselves anyway. Plus our AHL team wouldnt get better by adding these AHL vets your talking about IMO.

Like I was saying...you tried to do this last year too....some guys won't be around anymore, others will graduate, some guys are going to bolt for Europe (others are probably just going to stay there,,,). And really, who the hell is Trevor Moore anyway? But you're worried about never were's taking away playing time...

And You're also calling Grittith and Kalinin prospects...da fuq

They'll still have some vets.

Edited by HBCYG

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I agree that some guys will move on, but most are 20-22 years old and many have NHL potential. Im thinking we want to keep as many of the best guys arround as we can for at least 2 years so we really know which are our top guys. My point is by playing our prospects / young pros instead of older vets in the AHL / ECHL we can evaluate more of our guys ensuring we keep the best guys.

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I know of the 20 guys I listed maybe 5-10 have top 9 potential in the NHL and they probably seperate themselves from the group after 2-3 weeks of training camp but I think having 10-12 kids in the ECHL working hard to become AHLers would be a positive thing for the Marlies. Having enough ECHL depth to almost act as a reserve list and build familiarity between players and develop a similarity in play style and systems would allow more fluid transitions of ECHL guys into the Marlies lineup after injuries or just when fresh blood is needed.

If we syncronized the ECHL club enough by way of coaching / training and providing quality young players the ECHL could become an extension of our development program opening up more ice time for our prospects. Just because we didnt need extra development slots in the past it doesnt mean we couldnt need them in the future.

With good scouting and drafting we could amass a 3 tiered prospect pool and with good coaching / training practices and quality players, the ECHL could act as an overflow tier where guys who have potential but get pushed out by better prospects could still play and develop.  Lots of players from tier 2 junior and the ECHL go on to become good NHLers and we could use that 3rd tier to ensure we have lots of AHL depth and we can always develop our players in North America when our pool gets big.

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Again, not quite, but thanks for trying?

The ECHL isn't the development league in waiting you think it is. They'll need some vets for mentoring, injuries/callups to maintain a constant and not everyone under the age of 23 needs that much of a look before they move on...especially when they start shuffling the decks as soon as next year. 

 

 

 

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So the gist of all this is..........

We "graduated" a bunch of our Centre prospects, and some RHD prospects too, and now our farm system is a little light on them?

Amazing observations going on here.  Good work, everyone.  My guess is that we'll now need to draft again.....maybe as early as this summer......and replenish some of those kids.  It's just me, reaching, but I THINK that's what should happen.  

There.  I think we're all done here.  Now hit the showers.

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I don't understand the "thanks for trying" or the sarcastic "amazing observations". Trevor is simply stating his opinion / philosophy on development and using points to back them up.

FWIW I kind of agree although I haven't spent too much time thinking about it. I don't think our prospect pool has blue-chippers and we won't be drafting high enough to have any can't miss prospects - especially considering the rumours this draft is weak. I see less value in icing vets and more value going all out with our draft picks considering we've kept most of our draft picks in the recent past and have even amassed more through trades. Some of these players must have a chip on their shoulder and want to emerge as alpha among the crop. This is the perfect opportunity with no spotlight on a Nylander type. I wouldn't lose sleep if management signed vets and iced them as I'm sure they know best but for the purpose of discussion, I'd like to see as many of our prospects getting icetime within the organization. I also wouldn't mind quantity for quality trades. 

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It'd be swell It's just never going to be practical for us to have as much depth as he thinks we can that deep in the ECHL 

He's been going on about it since last off season.

I didn't say they wouldn't have less vets than before.  It's just going to more than 2-3. See Loov for Kalinin. They want guys they can count on to be there too. 

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You don't ice a team of only rookies/prospects for the same reason no team, ever, in any sport doesn't do it.  

 

Also, there's more to development than just throwing kids on the ice and saying 'there you are'.  It's about putting guys in position to succeed.  About learning the pro game.  Playing against men, and in more games.  Etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I believe having patience when evaluating our prospects is the best way forward for the Leafs. Prospects from the later rounds typically need 2-4 years in the AHL before becoming NHL ready(i.e. Leipsic, Leivo, Brown) but the issue arises when you try to accomodate 2-3 draft classes in one AHL roster. Theres not enough roster spots. Yet 21-22 year old players could still emerge as NHL players in the future. Keeping the overflow in the ECHL is a remedy that also puts pressure on AHL guys to keep their spots.

I dont see a problem here.

Limiting the # of Vets allows more development / evaluation.....another positive when the skill levels of good 20-24 year olds and 28-30 year old AHL vets are typically similar.

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